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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 13:33:15 GMT -5
The country is not at all divided in standing with civilians against the terror from terrorists and state. The only ones dividing us are those that claim that you have to pick ONE side and that Biden is to blame for everything. Fucking halfwit.
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 13:36:45 GMT -5
How Putin.
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Post by forgottenlord on Oct 13, 2023 14:23:43 GMT -5
Wait.... what? That's exactly what Israel is saying they plan to do. They gave the 24hr notice because tomorrow they plan to roll the tanks and shoot everyone they identify as a potential enemy. Our entire discussion started because you criticized them telling civilians to evacuate the area before they roll the tanks. At no point was I talking about starving Hamas out. That is what they plan to do? First, they bomb the fuck out of Gaza then give an arbitrarily short deadline for UN to pull out their resources. Come on man... At no point did I claim that you did. I am claiming that the Israeli solution of starving out Gaza is the excuse, but it is nothing more than more reprisals. I am presenting the whole picture of the problem vis a vis a solution, as suppose to one liners that lack argumentative complexity. At no point did I state that this is what you think. I can't read your mind. I thought I made that clear. Lets bone this out. Your claim is that there is no other solution then what Israel is doing isn't an endorsement that what they are doing is the right thing to do. Maybe pragmatically you think that is the only thing left on the table because of whatever, but that's not relevant. I am saying that the only thing Israel is offering as a solution is cruel, indifference and doesn't meet the definition of proportional response. Your argument. But I am not claiming that you are endorsing or supporting what Israel is doing; only see it as the only solution left. Not as a long term solution, but as the reality of our modern understanding of conflicts. I AM saying that the Israeli excuse for what they're doing is not proportional at all. With the examples of shutting off food, medicine, electricity and water. It is cruel and does nothing to shorten the conflict. It is just to retaliate against civilians. I don't know what is in your head, but my experience of your prior arguments have never made me believe that you have a Machiavellian callous streak. I am simply pointing out the context less 'proportional' argument with how it does not support anything Israel is doing; other then indifferent revenge for the civilians that were killed. And the whole evacuate the north in arbitrary short period of time, after leveling entire blocks is not a surgical strike, thought out with the Civilians best in mind. It is the veneer of reason given by an indifferent IDF that is about to go Rambo on Gaza with the atta boy by cowardly politicians in Europe and USA that keep their blinders on to the disproportionate reaction to what Hamas did. Our lizard brains tells us that an eye for an eye is the modus operandi for thousands years of human history, ingrained in every fiber of our humanity; and I'm just stating the obvious. It serves no proportional purpose other then blood for the blood god. No, I'm saying that there's no other solution (or, at least, next step) than sending troops into the region and ordering civilians out of the way and I'm arguing that it is a proportional response to be sending troops into the region like that considering that's exactly what Hamas did. Only without 24hr notice and with absolutely no interest in protecting civilians. You have ranted about so many fucking topics and pulled from so many historical examples and the only time you've come to the question of "what alternative is there", you indicated that you agree that the next step is sending in ground forces. So then what the fuck is the lecture for? Every time I say "I'm not talking about X" after you devoted 3 paragraphs to X, you said "I never claimed you were talking about X". Why bring it up? Who are you ranting to? I feel like at every step of this conversation you have implicitly criticized my view and my perspective and every time I try to say "but that's not my argument" you say "I never said it was your argument" and then rant again for another 3 paragraphs about something that's STILL NOT MY ARGUMENT. Are you just ranting for the sake of venting? Are you even critiquing my argument?
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 14:31:40 GMT -5
Private equity firms are now buying up hospitals and bleed them dry so they have to shut their doors, depriving smaller communities of lifesaving local aid, but also all the well paid jobs lost.
Just as these private firms are buying up housing and displacing people by maximizing profits, they're going after our healthcare - generally marginally profitable, but serving an important function in our society.
Vulture capitalism is a blight, and among the western nations we're probably alone in allowing this. One of these companies that bought up Delaware county memorial hospital for example claim that they had to shut down the hospital due to high labor and supply cost - which is entirely false on its face. In 2018 they did what Bain company was famous for doing - by saddling the hospital with a 1.12 billion dollar loan and paid themselves 457 million dollar dividend. The CEO took home about 90 million dollar in doing so. Then then paid off the loan by selling of land and buildings to another firm. This company have built a portfolio of 20 hospitals, 5 have already closed and are doing the same to most of them. So how does this work, other then the loan, dividend and then selling out property to another company they're in cahoots with? They then HAVE to pay extorsion rate rent to this firm - money that is then flowing out of the Hospitals in mostly low income communities until the Hospital can no longer operate.
So what is the consequence? The community in question and their 85000 citizens are now underserved and are overflowing to nearby medical facilities, that are now slammed, with medical staff having to serve upwards to 25% more patients. This is also leading to results like shooting victims, already struggling to survive, having to travel for miles looking for a hospital that can take them, leading to death.
This company BTW have now announced that they need to cut staff in the remaining hospitals. Just so they can suck up more profits until their close. The next hospital they are about to close is in Texas. Leaving over 800 unemployed and a community in need of healthcare. Just so some sociopath rich fucks can scheme to soak up as much profit while devastating entire communities.
Only in USA.
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Post by forgottenlord on Oct 13, 2023 14:43:54 GMT -5
Bear steals a bag of Gummy Bears
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 14:48:42 GMT -5
That is what they plan to do? First, they bomb the fuck out of Gaza then give an arbitrarily short deadline for UN to pull out their resources. Come on man... At no point did I claim that you did. I am claiming that the Israeli solution of starving out Gaza is the excuse, but it is nothing more than more reprisals. I am presenting the whole picture of the problem vis a vis a solution, as suppose to one liners that lack argumentative complexity. At no point did I state that this is what you think. I can't read your mind. I thought I made that clear. Lets bone this out. Your claim is that there is no other solution then what Israel is doing isn't an endorsement that what they are doing is the right thing to do. Maybe pragmatically you think that is the only thing left on the table because of whatever, but that's not relevant. I am saying that the only thing Israel is offering as a solution is cruel, indifference and doesn't meet the definition of proportional response. Your argument. But I am not claiming that you are endorsing or supporting what Israel is doing; only see it as the only solution left. Not as a long term solution, but as the reality of our modern understanding of conflicts. I AM saying that the Israeli excuse for what they're doing is not proportional at all. With the examples of shutting off food, medicine, electricity and water. It is cruel and does nothing to shorten the conflict. It is just to retaliate against civilians. I don't know what is in your head, but my experience of your prior arguments have never made me believe that you have a Machiavellian callous streak. I am simply pointing out the context less 'proportional' argument with how it does not support anything Israel is doing; other then indifferent revenge for the civilians that were killed. And the whole evacuate the north in arbitrary short period of time, after leveling entire blocks is not a surgical strike, thought out with the Civilians best in mind. It is the veneer of reason given by an indifferent IDF that is about to go Rambo on Gaza with the atta boy by cowardly politicians in Europe and USA that keep their blinders on to the disproportionate reaction to what Hamas did. Our lizard brains tells us that an eye for an eye is the modus operandi for thousands years of human history, ingrained in every fiber of our humanity; and I'm just stating the obvious. It serves no proportional purpose other then blood for the blood god. No, I'm saying that there's no other solution (or, at least, next step) than sending troops into the region and ordering civilians out of the way and I'm arguing that it is a proportional response to be sending troops into the region like that considering that's exactly what Hamas did. Only without 24hr notice and with absolutely no interest in protecting civilians. You have ranted about so many fucking topics and pulled from so many historical examples and the only time you've come to the question of "what alternative is there", you indicated that you agree that the next step is sending in ground forces. So then what the fuck is the lecture for? Every time I say "I'm not talking about X" after you devoted 3 paragraphs to X, you said "I never claimed you were talking about X". Why bring it up? Who are you ranting to? I feel like at every step of this conversation you have implicitly criticized my view and my perspective and every time I try to say "but that's not my argument" you say "I never said it was your argument" and then rant again for another 3 paragraphs about something that's STILL NOT MY ARGUMENT. Are you just ranting for the sake of venting? Are you even critiquing my argument? My entire argument has been about proportional response and solution other then bombing the fuck out of civilians. That's it. With historical examples for context how 'the proportional' argument is misguided at best. You added Marshall. I provided accurate context. You keep claiming that I agree that the nest step is sending in ground forces, I state that it is the inevitable step based on Israels actions, not the best response or what I would THINK is the best response. That would be a surgical strike house by house. Which you claimed was going to happen, which is not happening. Israel is not surgically going to move from house to house, because they had already made most of it rubble, and cut off any infrastructure for survival. This is not a surgical inception against their enemy; it is to add the veneer of concern, while flattening northern Gaza. My example of moving house by house, then moving back civilians, is not at all what Israel is about to do. Their premier minister has already stated he views Palestinian and Hamas as the same. What's coming next is a bloodbath guised as 'proportional' response. I'm done here. If you can't afford me the curtesy of at least argue what I state, I think it is pointless to continue. I will take your suggestion and 'fuck off'. That is the only 'proportional' response to your continued emotional arguments while ignoring any point I made. Have a terrific weekend.
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 15:07:41 GMT -5
I have always found the idea of good v evil corny. Even modern politics use these moronic terms, but it is prevalent in all Media from movies to books.
The idea that something is just so rotten to the core that it is primal evil or so good that it only struggles with the idea of not being evil.
I love star wars, but the problem with the whole saga is the idea of evil v good. When in reality it could just be a struggle between authoritarian and democratic.
There are of course plenty other examples of 'evil' vs 'good'. Take the Walking Dead. There is some ambivalence in 'good' actions, or actions for the good of a group that they explore, but so many of them are just evil with a really poor excuse for 'why' they are evil. The 'good' guys keep running into it. The actual zombies are just the drapery and not the evil part, it is what drives the 'desperation' in the evil acts of say people like Negan.
I think the best one to explore this however is the last of us. There most of the actions are driven by the push/pull between doing it for oneself, or doing it for the greater good. Joe killing the fireflies to save Elle is for the single benefit of her; whereas the fireflies genuinely think their action can serve the greater good. Joe keeps this from her since he has a feeling she'd sacrifice herself for the greater good in that case. None of the characters are 'evil'. They're driven of certain motivations. Their acts are either primal in vengeance, or the idea is more to protect the larger group. Not even the 'Federal' response is evil per say. It is the excuse of authority in a terminal situation where there's not just one deciding factor.
Unlike in the Walking Dead, where time and time there is one or two evil guys and a bunch of NPCs with little personality following along.
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Post by LA_Randy on Oct 13, 2023 15:17:24 GMT -5
Some good reads …I found this NYT article today called “Israel, Gaza and the Laws of War: International law offers a framework for how to analyze what is happening” to be particularly helpful in trying to reason my way through a situation in which civilians are being targeted and/or caught in the crossfire by both sides: digbysblog.net/2023/10/13/some-good-reads/
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 15:20:53 GMT -5
Go fuck yourself. There is not one single example of constraint. The brutality was filmed and the victims dragged through the dirt. Some of the hostages showed signs of rape. If there was say 50 civilians dead after such a massive strike, then maybe there could be an argument. But waves, of waves of indistriminate rockets and then the barbaric assault by the terrorists speaks volume. May you drown in your piss.
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Post by LA_Randy on Oct 13, 2023 15:28:39 GMT -5
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 15:36:54 GMT -5
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 15:38:42 GMT -5
How Taliban of them. With the help of the Supreme Court.
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Post by phillippatUK on Oct 13, 2023 15:42:30 GMT -5
Go fuck yourself. There is not one single example of constraint. The brutality was filmed and the victims dragged through the dirt. Some of the hostages showed signs of rape. If there was say 50 civilians dead after such a massive strike, then maybe there could be an argument. But waves, of waves of indistriminate rockets and then the barbaric assault by the terrorists speaks volume. May you drown in your piss. AFAIR, there was an initial attack by Hamas militants that DID go after military targets (they were expecting more armed resistance), but they were quickly followed up by a large number of armed 'civilians' that went after civilian targets - (and caused all the problems)?
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 15:46:04 GMT -5
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 15:57:53 GMT -5
Go fuck yourself. There is not one single example of constraint. The brutality was filmed and the victims dragged through the dirt. Some of the hostages showed signs of rape. If there was say 50 civilians dead after such a massive strike, then maybe there could be an argument. But waves, of waves of indistriminate rockets and then the barbaric assault by the terrorists speaks volume. May you drown in your piss. AFAIR, there was an initial attack by Hamas militants that DID go after military targets (they were expecting more armed resistance), but they were quickly followed up by a large number of armed 'civilians' that went after civilian targets - (and caused all the problems)? I honestly don't believe it one bit. So many of these attackers had all the usual insignia of the suspect Militias and there are also evidence of them rehearsing the attack back in Gaza. It went as planned. If that was not intended by the leadership, they sure have a piss poor way of controlling any of their troops. If this was not the desired outcome, it was the inevitable. And Hamas has to own this shit. Just as the blood of all the innocent who died at their hands, and the innocent Palestinian that will. No one walks away from this without guilt. I in fact find it so cowardly but either side to pretend that this is not what they want. Hamas for their part and Israel for their inhuman treatment of civilians. Everyone tries to take the moral high ground by failing upwards. It is so sickening, so disgusting and so lacking in humanity. But it is the inevitable result regardless. Since no one is trying hard for anything different, the idiocy continues for another decade or so. Imagine how many potential geniuses, scientists, innovators, artists that are dying in that stupid conflict on both sides. People who could offer us a solution to how to survive as a species going forward. Someone that could write the singular music piece that defined a decade. The one that would take us to the stars. The one who ushered in a whole new take on culture and art. The one who cured cancer, soothed the soul, launched a movement that took us to new heights as humans. Someone could argue that maybe we're also getting rid of the scum who could do the opposite. But isn't that what the conflict does anyways? Expose our primal nature and murder hope? Fuck if I know. I just know that this endless meatgrinder of malice has no happy endings.
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 13, 2023 18:29:00 GMT -5
I just watched Lindsey making the statement that USA and Israel should go ahead and bomb Iran without any evidence of their involvement. And his response was...as the thought seeped into his warmongering rotten brain....eh....yeah. And if that shit goes wrong and expand the conflict in middle east he'd be the first to blame Biden.
These people are not serious.
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Post by foggyisback on Oct 13, 2023 23:40:41 GMT -5
That is what they plan to do? First, they bomb the fuck out of Gaza then give an arbitrarily short deadline for UN to pull out their resources. Come on man... At no point did I claim that you did. I am claiming that the Israeli solution of starving out Gaza is the excuse, but it is nothing more than more reprisals. I am presenting the whole picture of the problem vis a vis a solution, as suppose to one liners that lack argumentative complexity. At no point did I state that this is what you think. I can't read your mind. I thought I made that clear. Lets bone this out. Your claim is that there is no other solution then what Israel is doing isn't an endorsement that what they are doing is the right thing to do. Maybe pragmatically you think that is the only thing left on the table because of whatever, but that's not relevant. I am saying that the only thing Israel is offering as a solution is cruel, indifference and doesn't meet the definition of proportional response. Your argument. But I am not claiming that you are endorsing or supporting what Israel is doing; only see it as the only solution left. Not as a long term solution, but as the reality of our modern understanding of conflicts. I AM saying that the Israeli excuse for what they're doing is not proportional at all. With the examples of shutting off food, medicine, electricity and water. It is cruel and does nothing to shorten the conflict. It is just to retaliate against civilians. I don't know what is in your head, but my experience of your prior arguments have never made me believe that you have a Machiavellian callous streak. I am simply pointing out the context less 'proportional' argument with how it does not support anything Israel is doing; other then indifferent revenge for the civilians that were killed. And the whole evacuate the north in arbitrary short period of time, after leveling entire blocks is not a surgical strike, thought out with the Civilians best in mind. It is the veneer of reason given by an indifferent IDF that is about to go Rambo on Gaza with the atta boy by cowardly politicians in Europe and USA that keep their blinders on to the disproportionate reaction to what Hamas did. Our lizard brains tells us that an eye for an eye is the modus operandi for thousands years of human history, ingrained in every fiber of our humanity; and I'm just stating the obvious. It serves no proportional purpose other then blood for the blood god. No, I'm saying that there's no other solution (or, at least, next step) than sending troops into the region and ordering civilians out of the way and I'm arguing that it is a proportional response to be sending troops into the region like that considering that's exactly what Hamas did. Only without 24hr notice and with absolutely no interest in protecting civilians. You have ranted about so many fucking topics and pulled from so many historical examples and the only time you've come to the question of "what alternative is there", you indicated that you agree that the next step is sending in ground forces. So then what the fuck is the lecture for? Every time I say "I'm not talking about X" after you devoted 3 paragraphs to X, you said "I never claimed you were talking about X". Why bring it up? Who are you ranting to? I feel like at every step of this conversation you have implicitly criticized my view and my perspective and every time I try to say "but that's not my argument" you say "I never said it was your argument" and then rant again for another 3 paragraphs about something that's STILL NOT MY ARGUMENT. Are you just ranting for the sake of venting? Are you even critiquing my argument? Sounds like docdrama has returned in some form 🤔
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 14, 2023 2:54:16 GMT -5
No, I'm saying that there's no other solution (or, at least, next step) than sending troops into the region and ordering civilians out of the way and I'm arguing that it is a proportional response to be sending troops into the region like that considering that's exactly what Hamas did. Only without 24hr notice and with absolutely no interest in protecting civilians. You have ranted about so many fucking topics and pulled from so many historical examples and the only time you've come to the question of "what alternative is there", you indicated that you agree that the next step is sending in ground forces. So then what the fuck is the lecture for? Every time I say "I'm not talking about X" after you devoted 3 paragraphs to X, you said "I never claimed you were talking about X". Why bring it up? Who are you ranting to? I feel like at every step of this conversation you have implicitly criticized my view and my perspective and every time I try to say "but that's not my argument" you say "I never said it was your argument" and then rant again for another 3 paragraphs about something that's STILL NOT MY ARGUMENT. Are you just ranting for the sake of venting? Are you even critiquing my argument? Sounds like docdrama has returned in some form 🤔 Are you accusing me of being docdrama? How insulting.
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 14, 2023 6:33:55 GMT -5
Alan Dershowitz claims in a debate with Cornel West, that CNN is inducing Israel to kill babies (bombing Palestine) so they can make more money by covering it.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. This conflict has sure opened my eyes to how shitty Media and some famous people are in their takes. Not that I admire Alan in any way. His legal takes have been tainted by some real stupid lately.
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 14, 2023 6:49:58 GMT -5
I find the show for all mankind absolutely fascinating. It is an alternative space race show where Soviet landed on the moon first and it spans through decades. In the current season humanity has now reached Mars and there's an asteroid with untold quantities of this rare metal that all nations are gunning for.
It still contain a fair share of geopolitical with that in mind, so it is definitely not a Star Trek type show.
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 14, 2023 6:56:15 GMT -5
Hannity is bitching that 'anti-Semitism' is running rampant on 'University campuses'. Apparently he has never seen the average university campus. And it is not anti sematism. That would be the idiot right and their space lazor theories. No it is the continued open air prison policy on behalf of Israel. I'm sure there are some stupid takes by regular students about who's at fault and that what Hamas did is a response to that, but that is not relevant.
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Post by LA_Randy on Oct 14, 2023 7:11:42 GMT -5
Maybe this applies here as well as there. Disproportionate response www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2023/10/disproportionate-responseDon’t think forgottenlord meant what Israel is doing is right so much as what they think is appropriate. When you have a hammer everything is a nail type thinking in my opinion. Add to that the emotional impact of the hamas atrocities I think will lead to Israel to commit atrocities that will be excused. Sad all the way around.
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 14, 2023 7:49:27 GMT -5
Maybe this applies here as well as there. Disproportionate response www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2023/10/disproportionate-responseDon’t think forgottenlord meant what Israel is doing is right so much as what they think is appropriate. When you have a hammer everything is a nail type thinking in my opinion. Add to that the emotional impact of the hamas atrocities I think will lead to Israel to commit atrocities that will be excused. Sad all the way around. I don't for a minute think FL endorse Israels actions. I simply had an objection to the idea that it is proportionate. But that has been played out well enough. At some point even the most ardent supports of Israel, in Media and Politics, is going to have to defend What is shaping up to be a genocidal attack on mostly children. Hamas atrocities will sound hollow when thousands upon thousands are extracted from the flattened hellscape of Gaza. Right now I have no idea how any of them can even gag up a defense of shutting off water and food. We often hear the emotional appeal to the ideas that babies are precious and innocent. That they require extra protection and fundamental overreach to keep safe. And that might be true, if the goals was to protect the babies. But we see hear so clearly that killed babies in a kibbutz, has more propagandistic value than a building crushing dozens of them to death. Humanity isn't a talking point; you either believe in it as a value, or it is just a cynical soundbite to throw up to silence dissent. In reading what you linked, something struck me. Owen Jones stated that was Israeli President Isaac Herzog said, amount to blaming Palestinian for a collective guilt. The very same things Nazis used to excuse the holocaust. What I find so insidious with our own collective guilt in our treatment of Jews, and the take away Jews took (and I'm speaking mostly of the extreme right on Zionists), is that their 'never again' turned them into the very people they escaped. And no, the Israeli government is quite not as barbaric as Nazis; but they are locking an entire people up like the Nazis did with the Jews in Ghettos before they 'liquidated' them and moved them into death camps. And their view of Palestinians is largely as inferior or barbaric. I don't want to draw absolute parallels since that takes you into absurd territory, but it is troubling how indifferent they are, given their shared trauma. But it also explains why a plurality of Israelis and Jews everywhere are more Democratic. But some people have already sold their humanity for talking points and paychecks. There's nothing new in that.
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Post by LA_Randy on Oct 14, 2023 8:23:05 GMT -5
“It’s like the virus had escaped the lab” Josh Marshall wrote this last night and I think it’s the only way to properly frame what’s happening in the US Congress right now. It’s bigger than the speakers race. It’s simply the way the Republican party operates now in every way… digbysblog.net/2023/10/13/its-like-the-virus-had-escaped-the-lab/
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Post by LA_Randy on Oct 14, 2023 8:33:49 GMT -5
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 14, 2023 8:45:16 GMT -5
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Post by LA_Randy on Oct 14, 2023 8:58:55 GMT -5
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Post by mrobvious on Oct 14, 2023 9:34:50 GMT -5
These talking heads get paid millions to come up with the most blitheringly stupid shit. The bar is so low these days to join the Media circus. Put on a suit, get a nice haircut and act serious. Then just spoon feed the audience with scripted dumbassery,
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Post by phillippatUK on Oct 14, 2023 10:41:48 GMT -5
Why aren't they stopping us from hitting ourselves? /s
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Post by LA_Randy on Oct 14, 2023 11:24:21 GMT -5
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